From:
lpb@florida.swdc.stratus.com (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups:
alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Interview with Lazar on Area 51
Message-ID:
<8745.23752@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:23:01
GMT
References: <67397@cup.portal.com> <72095@cup.portal.com>
Lines:
1231
The following are some of the first messages that
appeared on the Paranet
UFO network regarding Robert Lazar.
----Begin Included Text
---------------------------------------------
Message #2505 "PN: UFO"
Date:
11-Nov-89 03:25
From: Michael Corbin
To: All
Subj: For Immediate Release
Next Reply is Message
#2506
November 10, 1989
ParaNet Information
Service (Denver, CO)--This evening
saw
perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas,
Nevada has
been airing a UFO special during
the evening news
which began on Monday dealing with
the UFO mystery and cover-up.
The
series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage
with a
history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving
forward through
the numerous sighting
reports to the cattle
mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised
at the
close of last
evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman
for
Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person
would be
featured on
tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51,
the government's
super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.
Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a
physicist who
claimed that
he had worked on a project at
Area 51 involving
flying disks provided by
alien intelligences.
Over the
last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to
possible
involvement with the government
in projects of this
nature at
the Nevada test site. Up to now, the
stories have been
of a very speculative nature. Although the material presented by
Robert Lazar
remains unconfirmed, enough information
has been
disclosed that
ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada
has
started an intensive investigation into this release.
It is
interesting to
note that Robert Lazar is an associate
of John
Lear and
has been providing this information to Lear over the
last few
months. Lear has appeared on
Channel 8 on numerous
occasions
together will Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET
Hypothesis.'
According to Lear,
Lazar was instrumental in
providing
Lear with locations overlooking
the test site which
would provide
a good view of the objects as they flew
into the
night sky.
Lear attempted to shoot video of an
object as it
maneuvered through the night sky
during last summer, however
nothing was captured on the tape of a substantive
nature. Lear
also relates
that his group was harassed by
a Lincoln County
sheriff following his attempts
to take the pictures.
Below is a
transcript of the program
that aired this
evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of
the
segment. We were as
accurate as possible on the
transcription,
however
there are a couple of places where comments were edited
out due to inability to
understand what was being said.
Further reports will be provided as information becomes
available.
=================================================================
We've
been working on
the story for
some time....UFO
researchers claim that there is a secret government within
our
government. Now this
may be hard to believe coming from the
UFO
perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and
the Iran
Contra scandal
that factions within our government can
and do
pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law;
outside the
control of the
Congress or the knowledge of the American
people.
This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about
tonight.
It's a chilling scenario with worldwide
implications that may
have its roots right here [Las
Vegas, Nevada].
Area 51, that
mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site,
is
no longer considered a
secret. The fact that secretive
things
go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make
daily spy
flights over
the facility to take a peek at
what's going on.
These photos, never before shown in
public, are about as close as
anyone will ever come to seeing what the
place looks like again.
The dry
bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile
long runway
and some highly sophisticated radar
and detection
equipment. Its
been known by many names over
the years --
Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk
Works. If ever there was a place
to test
the secret new technology,
this is it. And that's
exactly what has been done here
for decades.
Area 51
is where Francis Gary Powers
and the other U-2
pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was
developed. The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet
missiles in
Cuba in
the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where
Stealth technology was nurtured,
where Star Wars devices
are
still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown]
business has
been plotted
and refined. It's the
perfect place for secret
things, but
of course, that's no secret. 51
is ringed by the
forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the
looming Groom
Mountain and
by sparsely populated desert
expanses. But the
people that do live out here have
no love lost for the military,
but they're
conservative, patriotic and
they mind their own
business.
Interviewer
questioning a nearby resident of Area 51:
"Ever see
something
that you can't explain?"
Resident: "Sure, lots of times."
Interviewer: "Care to elaborate?"
Resident: "No." (Laughter).
On any given night at the Rachel
Bar and Grill, you might
find three or four people who work at Area 51. They
are among
the flowing
Budweiser and the cowboy hats. You might
find them,
but they
are not going to talk to you.
Not about the things that
they have seen over the
mountain. A steady trickle of
curiosity-
seekers flows through
here; strangers, drawn by strange
stories
of lights in the night sky. Their questions also go
unanswered.
No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly
acknowledged
what so many
people have suspected for
years: That alien
technology is being tested in the
Nevada desert.
The speculation
first surfaced in documents obtained by
UFO
researchers. Documents
about something called Project
Aquarius.
The document allegedly prepared for an organization
called MJ-12,
states that a
program to fly recovered
alien spacecraft was
established in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada. The
National
Security Agency has confirmed it does have a Project
Aquarius but
denies that it has anything to do with flying saucers. NSA
will
not say what Project Aquarius is.
Speculation was heightened in 1984, when the Air Force
seized nearly 90,000 acres around
Groom Lake. The action was, by
most
accounts, illegal. During Congressional
hearings about the
land grab,
Congressman John Siberling grilled the military about
the legal authority used in the action and was told
the authority
was at a
much, much higher
level than the
Air Force.
Siberling asked
what authority is higher than the laws
of the
United States? The Air Force official said he could
respond, but
only in a closed briefing.
In 1987, when the Air Force sought to
renew its
stranglehold on the Groom range, news
articles once
again mentioned the talk about alien
spacecraft and subsequent
articles in
national magazines quoted
un-named sources about
things of alien origin flying in
Nevada. Things that would make
film-maker George Lucas drool. Despite the speculation, no one
who knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about the
saucer story.
Bob Lazar:
"Well, there's several uh, actually nine uh flying
saucers, flying
disks that are out there of
extraterrestrial
origin."
The live interview with the shadowy "Dennis" drew
international attention. Portions were broadcast by radio in
six
European countries, and in a
nationally televised TV special
in
Japan.
Despite
numerous inquiries and
"feelers,"
"Dennis" has
remained
anonymous until now. His real name is
Robert Lazar. A
young scientist
with eclectic interests. The choice
of "Dennis"
was an
inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior at
Groom Lake. It wasn't a joke to Dennis.
Lazar: "He called right after and said, 'Do
you have any idea
what we're going to do to you now?' and I said no, and
he hung up
the phone."
Lazar's story is by
any standard, fantastic. He says he's
telling it in order to protect
himself. He said he was hired to
work in area called S-4 which is a
few miles south of Groom Lake.
At
S-4, he says, are flying
saucers, anti-matter reactors and
other working examples of
technology that is seemingly beyond
human capabilities.
Lazar: "Right. This stuff came from somewhere else. I know it
is hard to believe, but it is there and I saw
it. I
know what
the current
state-of-the-art is in physics and it it can't be
done."
Checking
out Lazar's credentials proved to be
a difficult
task. He says he holds degrees in physics and
electronics, but
the schools that
we contacted say they've never heard of him.
He
says he also
worked as a physicist at
Los Alamos National
Labs where he worked with one
of the world's largest particle
beam accelerators, a half-mile
long 'behemoth' capable
of
generating
seven-hundred million
volts. Los Alamos officials
told us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever
working there.
They were either
mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone
book from
the Lab lists Lazar right there among the
other scientists and
technicians. A 1982 news clipping from the Los
Alamos newspaper
profiled Lazar
and his interest in jet cars. It,
too, mentioned
his employment at the Lab as a physicist. We called Los Alamos
again,
and an exasperated official told us
he still had
no
records on Lazar.
EG&G, which is where Lazar
says he was
interviewed for the job at S-4, also has no record. It's as
if
someone has made him disappear.
Lazar: "Well, they're trying to make me look
non-existent to the
places that I called...."
Interviewer: "Explain. Called where?"
Lazar:
"Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital that
I
was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on
it."
He smiles, but
out of futility, knowing the whole thing must
sound ridiculous. According to Lazar,
his employer was the
United States Navy. He says he and other
government employees
would
gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people
would get
into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to
S-4.
Interviewer: "You get off the bus, what do you see?"
Lazar: "A
very interesting building.
Its got a
slope of
probably about
30 degrees which are hangar doors,
and it has
textured paint on it, but it looks like sand. It's made to look
like the side of the mountain that it is in, whether
it's to
disguise it from
satellite photographs or what...."
He says he was never
told exactly what he would be
working
on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion.
On his first day he was told to read a series
of briefings, and
immediately
realized how advanced the propulsion really was.
Lazar: "The power source is an anti-matter
reactor. They run
gravity amplifiers. There is
actually two parts to the drive
mechanism. It's
a bizarre technology. There is
no physical
hookups between
any of the systems in there. They use
gravity as
a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves."
It
took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw one
of
the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere.
Lazar: "Right. They had a poster,
and it looked like a
commercial poster, like it was lithographed, like you could buy
it
at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place and
it
had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor model' which
lifted off the ground about 3 feet out at the area,
in the
Dry
Lakes area, and the caption on it said 'They're here.'
These
posters were all over the place."
Later, he got to see the real
thing.
Lazar: "When I
was led in, it was the first time that I saw
the
'floor model' in the hangar sitting down, and I was told
they
could have walked me in the front door but they purposely wanted
to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and to
keep my
eyes forward and walk past the disk to the office
area. And I
did. And as we
went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands
on it,
just to run it
alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to
see actually lift off
the ground and operate."
Interviewer: "You actually got to see more than one?"
Lazar: "Yeah. The hangars are all connected
together. There
are large
bay doors between each one. There were
nine total that
I saw, each one
being different. Like they had the
assortment
pack."
Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his
superiors
used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.
Lazar: "They did everything but physically
hurt me."
Interviewer:
"They put a gun to your head?"
Lazar: "Yeah."
Interviewer: "You mean they actually put a gun to
your head?"
Lazar:
"They did that even in the original security briefing.
Guards
there with M-16s. Guys there slamming
their fingers into
my chest, screaming into my ear, they were
pointing weapons at
me.
Like I said, it's not a good place to work."
That
fear factor would surface later. Lazar
agreed to
undergo a
polygraph exam as part of this report.
Polygrapher Ron
Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had
seen.
Polygrapher:
"Did you knowingly lie when you had actually seen
anti-gravity propulsion in
operation?"
Lazar:
"No."
The results of this exam were inconclusive. Lazar appeared
to be
truthful on one test;
deceitful on a
second. Clay
recommended that a second examiner be brought in.
Polygrapher
Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security
operation and is
a former Los
Angeles police officer. He put Lazar
through four
tests and concluded
there were no attempts to deceive.
Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher who
agreed the results appeared
truthful. The charts were then sent
to a fourth examiner who did
not agree suggesting that
Lazar
might be relating information he'd learned from someone
else.
The polygraphers concurred and decided they would not issue
a
final statement on
truthfulness until more specific testing
can
be conducted. And
that's where it stands.
Tabernetti believes the
difficulty in determining Lazar's
truthfulness stems from the
fear that was drilled into him.
Lazar: "Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that.
What's going on up there could
be the most important event in
history. You're talking about
contact, physical contact
and
proof from another planet, another system, another intelligence.
Thats got to be the
biggest event in history, period.
And, it's
real and it's there. And I had an extremely small part in it.
I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof
of that. There
is no way that we could have created those
disks. There is no
way we could have made the disks, the power supplies,
anything
that goes with it."
Lazar
says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture
circuit. He
is not looking to do any additional interviews. In
fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after
certain unfavorable
things started happening in his life, and
he
did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at
S-
4 is perpetrating a fraud on
the American people
and the
scientific
community.
=================================================================
Message
#3969 "PN: UFO"
Date: 12-Nov-89 01:48
From: Michael
Corbin
To: All
Subj:
Correction to the Area 51 transcript
SUBJECT: ADDENDUM/CORRECTIONS RE 11/10/89
KLAS-TV/NEVADA TEST
SITE/AREA 51 UFO REPORT
My introduction to
the partial transcript of the program contains
certain presumptions -- rather than evidence --
which may be misleading.
These presumptions were based on prior SEPARATE
KLAS-TV telecasts with Lear
and with a "Dennis" -- now revealed
as Robert Lazar.
> It is
interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of
> John Lear and has been providing this
information to Lear over
> the
last few months.
The extent to which Lazar has interfaced with Lear
is unknown. In fact,
Lear appears
to have had a number of Nevada Test Site sources, any one of
whom could
have provided him with the Area 51 information.
> According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in
providing Lear
> with locations
overlooking the test site which would provide
> a good view of the objects as they flew into
the night sky.
In fact, it is unknown who -- if anyone -- steered
Lear to the specific
locations overlooking the Nevada Test Site. Lear has made no statement
regarding
Lazar in this regard.
>
As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp,
> a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas,
stated that a
> scientific
person would be featured on tonight's program
> who has claimed to work at Area 51, the
government's
> super-secret
test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.
Rather than being situated at
Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, Area 51
lies in the northeast corner
of the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site at
Mercury, Nevada, which is 65
miles north of Nellis Air Force Base.
Mike
Message
#4002 "PN: UFO"
Date: 14-Nov-89 03:22
From: Robert
Klinn
To: All
Subj: Area
51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret
UFO Base?
Next Reply is Message #4023
With two top local TV
stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV --
carrying deadly
serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY
being flown out
of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S.
Government's Nevada
Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge as
even existing, the
situation here appears like The War of the Worlds.
Disinformation? Reality?
What next?
At KTNV-TV,
photographer Clay Downey and reporter Glen Meek are tracking
down the
nature of the on-going projects at Area 51.
Off-air, Meek says he
has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of
four sections. Of those, he has
learned
the type of activity occurring at two of them.
He has been having
much difficulty learning the type of activity
occurring at the other two.
KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30
p.m. Wed., Thurs, & Fri.
In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman
George Knapp, a UFO performs
abrupt manuevers over what may be the
"S-4" portion of Area 51 at the Test
Site. Knapp's final report will be broadcast
tonight, Tuesday at
approximately 6:15 p.m.
Knapp's star witness is
scientist Robert Lazar, who drew a picture of the
craft he saw operating
at the base.
Lazar emphatically claims these are alien craft -- not
human-made devices.
Lazar says at least one UFO appeared to have been
ruptured by a projectile.
War of the Worlds?
Robert B. Klinn
---
QuickBBS v2.04
* Origin:
-=<ParaNet Alpha(sm)>=- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422)
Message
#4024 "PN: UFO"
Date: 15-Nov-89 01:55
From: Michael
Corbin
To: All
Subj:
Installment on Dreamland continued.
November 13, 1989
ParaNet
Information Service (Denver,
CO) -- In our
continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations
coming out of
Las Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment
to the
program
aired on November 13, 1989 by television station
KLAS-TV and
George
Knapp.
=================================================================
News
Anchor persons:
A former
government scientist has alleged
that the U.S.
military is flying recovered UFOs
at a secret base in the Nevada
desert. The allegations about the secret facility
near the Groom
Mountains
first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last
Friday
[November 10, 1989].
Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of
the
flying saucers being
tested and that they were
not built on
Earth. George Knapp has more on the continuation of our series
on UFOs.
Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh,
other than Earth."
Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that
the technology he saw
being tested
at a secret base in the Nevada desert is
of alien
origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least,
partially in the
furniture. One
of the nine flying disks he says he saw
at the
base, which
was designated S-4, looks
exactly like this UFO
photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar
called it
the "sport
model."
Lazar: "I gave
everything names -- the top hat one and you
know
the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated
without any
hitches at
all. I mean, it looked new. If I knew what a new
flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was
hit
with some sort
of a projectile. It had a
large hole in the
bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal
bent out like
some sort
of, you know, large caliber 4
or 5
inch had gone
through it."
Even
before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he
suspected that the ship
came from somewhere
else. The
realization slapped him in the face the first time he
glimpsed
the inside of the disk.
Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really
small chairs. I
think that
was the first confirmation I had.
That was just a
shocking thing because everytime
before that I was able to label
it. This is just a little advance that a group
of scientists had
formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret,
and yeah, we
could have built
a big disk like that, and yeah,
that's no
problem, and, you
know, we could have adapted the use(?) to
make
it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled].
And things began to click
together just all too fast."
A few of the disks had
been completely dismantled to find
out how they worked,
Lazar says, but
others were fully
operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated
version
of Lazar's story after his
first interview with us aired in
May
[showing video]. Lazar says the dramatization is similar to
a
test flight he witnessed.
Lazar: "The bottom of it glowed blue and began
to hiss like any,
like high voltage does on a round sphere. It's
my impression
that the
reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is to
contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a
high voltage
system's insulators
-- things are round or else you get a
corona
discharge. In
either case, it began to hiss as in high
voltage
and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that
little hiss
in the background, and that stopped as soon as
it reached about
20 or 30
feet."
Lazar says the test of the sport model was a
short one --
that it made
only a few moves before setting
back down. He
didn't see who was actually flying the craft,
but was very
impressed, nonetheless.
Lazar: "Well, there's no action reaction
system to it. There's
no, like
in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown out -- no
propeller, no noise. It's just, for
all intents and purposes,
magic."
To
Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being used,
for say, any flights to Jupiter.
He said excessive caution
and
intense secrecy
contributed to the plodding pace of the
program
and were a main source of his disenchantment.
Lazar: "It's just unfair, outright, not to
put it in the hands
of the overall
scientific community. There are people
much more
capable of dealing with
this information, and by this time
would
have gotten a lot
further along than this small select group
of
people working out in the middle of the desert. They don't
even
have the facilities,
really, to completely analyze what
they're
dealing with."
Gene Huff:
"Well he was being quiet.
If he kept me abreast of
anything, he
kept me abreast of the security checks
-- they'd
randomly drop
by his house. They'd threaten
his life; they'd
threaten his
wife's life. They had done all that
so we
really
didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program."
Gene
Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser. A regular
guy who
just happens to have a
friend in the flying saucer
business. He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences
only after a
long period. Lazar is anxious for people to know that
he didn't
just run
right out and spill the secrets of the
universe, and
that some
things are properly kept confidential.
Lazar: "I did not believe that this should be
a security matter.
Some of it,
sure. But, just the concept that there's
definite
proof, and uh, we even have articles from another
world, another
system, you just
can't not tell everyone. A lot of
people don't
believe that. But, I do."
When he reached what he felt was his
bursting point, he took
Huff and a
few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to see
the flights for themselves. A total of five witnesses
on two
consecutive weeks managed to dodge security patrols
long enough
to see the strange
glowing object lift above the mountain.
Huff(?): "Uh,
it came up above the same
mountain. It moved
around. It did a step move -- it
actually went up in the air
like this [showing details with hands] and
it hovered then
dropped way down then it just
floated around and cruised
around.
It starts coming up the mountain range...."
This home video tape was recorded during
one of the trips to
the
Groom Mountains [showing
video tape. A
lot of
talking....Object in
sight....Mention of brightness
of the
object....].
Admittedly, the tape proves very little by itself because,
with the
distance and darkness, there are
no reference points
other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's
information about
the time and
location of the test flight proves correct
-- not
once but
twice. That, according to
our off-camera interviews
with each of the other
witnesses. Gene Huff describes his
second
sighting:
Huff:
"Through the telescope we could see an elliptical-shaped
light.
You can only get so close even
with a telescope to
a
secure facility. Anyway, it came up by us very
rapidly. It
glowed and
glows brighter like a star and
we almost got the
feeling that
it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly. We
backed up behind
the car then it went down and glowed back up
a
little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where the
mountains where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then that's
that....Just like you see in the
movies."
Bob Lazar
isn't the only person to claim "inside
knowledge"
of the flying
disks at the test site -- he is
just the only
person to say so publicly. We have communicated with
several
people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in
a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge
among
those with high security
clearances that recovered alien disks
are stored at the Nevada test site." A Las Vegas
professional,
who once served in the military and was stationed
at the
test
site, said he saw a
flying disk land outside the
boundaries of
Area 51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by
security personnel
and that he was taken away and debriefed for
several hours. A
man
who once worked
at Groom Lake as a technician,
at our
request, wrote this
letter explaining how he inadvertently walked
into the
wrong hangar and saw what appeared to
be a large
metallic disk under a tarp. It was being examined by men in
lab
coats. And, an
airman who worked
at Nellis at
a radar
installation says
he and his fellow servicemen watched
over a
period of
five nights, unusual objects flying
over the Groom
Mountains. He says the radar images indicates the
objects zoomed
into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then
would stop
on a
dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that.
The airman says that when word of his sighting
got out, he was
ordered to turn
off his radar sensors for that area and told
to
keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen.
None
of this means that the
military is actually flying
alien spacecraft in the Nevada desert. It could all perhaps be
explained as some other secret
program. Lazar insists that's not
the
case.
We put
the matter to the U.S.
Navy, which according to
Lazar,
is running the saucer show. Four
different naval offices
were contacted.
All denied having any information
in their
files. The
Naval Research Lab said it conducted
a thorough
search but found "zip." Naval Intelligence said much the
same
thing, adding, it is not required to create a file
where one
doesn't exist.
A side note: We also requested
files on a UFO
sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952. The Navy spent more than
a thousand hours studying film of
that sighting -- a fact that's
been noted in several publications -- but, for
purposes of our
request, the Navy couldn't find those files
either.
Lazar: "The
group that runs this project, whether it really is
the Navy or they just say that, apparently these
people have
executive power
-- they don't report to anyone."
Tomorrow, more troubling
allegations of the
military
potential of alien technology.
=================================================================
This
file is available on ParaNet as Area51-2.ufo.
End of file
--
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< MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World
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Article 5373 of alt.conspiracy:
Path:
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From:
dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen)
Newsgroups:
alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INFO: Chuck Harder interview of
George Knapp -LAZAR
Keywords: Robert Lazar -UFO - Area51
Message-ID:
<1991Jul4.020919.15517@bilver.uucp>
Date: 4 Jul 91 02:09:19
GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 631
Xref:
lassie alt.conspiracy:5373
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This
information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my
policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of
this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the
poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in
the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If
this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and
investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your
hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)
As
I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively,
comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp
in mail.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The
following file(s) appeared on the Paranet UFO network in the late
1989 to
1990 time period. The following files are on Robert Lazar and
are
copyrighted by Paranet to insure their integrity. I have not
gotten express permission to
re-publish them here; however it's my
*intent* to make them available for their informational content
only.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This
is the Chuck Harder radio interview
"For The People" of
George Knapp, regarding Robert
Lazar.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
DATE OF UPLOAD: December 23, 1989
ORIGIN OF
UPLOAD: ParaNet Information
Service
CONTRIBUTED BY: Chuck Harder/Special Correspondent to
ParaNet
========================================================
(C)
Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved unless
copyrighted by Author.
========================================================
INTERVIEW WITH
GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS,
NEVADA) ON
NOVEMBER 17,
1989. INTERVIEWED BY
CHUCK HARDER, HOST
AND
MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK.
CHUCK HARDER
My
guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he is
and where he's from for a number of
reasons, some of them for his
own protection. George, are you there...
GEORGE KNAPP
Hello Chuck.
CHUCK HARDER
Please
tell us, you are George Knapp, right...
GEORGE KNAPP
That's right.
CHUCK HARDER
George,
what do you do for a living?
GEORGE KNAPP
I'm a
journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the CBS affiliate
here.
CHUCK HARDER
So
you are a TV newsman...
GEORGE KNAPP
Right.
CHUCK HARDER
And
you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...
GEORGE KNAPP
Right.
CHUCK HARDER
I understand
that you have come upon
some very interesting
information and you've done
some special reports, could you
tell
us about it...?
GEORGE KNAPP
Well we
just finished a nine-part series
-- what may be the
longest
series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with
UFOs.
Our research actually started about two and a
half years ago, a
fellow named
John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the
Lear
Jet brought some of this information to our attention. In May of
this year, Mr. Lear
introduced us to a fellow who claims to
have
worked at a secret
base designated S-4...on a top-secret
Nevada
test site...the fellow said that he worked on flying
saucers,
that the
technology was not from Earth, and we
interviewed him
live in silhouette in May, the response was
incredible...we got
response from Japan, parts of that interview aired
on radio in
Europe, and six different European countries...so we
decided with
this much interest we might want to take a look at the
subject in
more depth.
We
started doing that and the first thing we found out is
that
really UFOs have
not been given a fair shake
by science, by
government, by religion and especially by
journalism. Millions
of people
have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I think the
latest Gallup
poll shows about 70 percent
of college-educated
Americans believe that there's something to it,
but because of
the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO
Babies'
-- kind of things in the National Enquirer,
people have shied
away from it...Serious people have shied away.
Scientists,
although they
might be interested in searching the universe
for
radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard
--
they can't get grants...people would laugh at them. Journalism -
- the coverage is
generally condescending and quirky,
especially
by the networks,
as in the coverage of this UFO that
supposedly
landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we
figured out
that millions of
people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the
'Close Encounters' movie
said, 'What's going on?' So we started
investigating it. The focal point of the story being this
fellow
who said he worked at
S-4. We broke his identity last
Friday.
His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked
at Los
Alamos National Labs,
he is a physicist...we did
a lot of
checking on him and found interestingly enough that his
life was
disappearing around
him. In other words we
called Los Alamos
Labs and they said they never heard of him. We called MIT where
he says he
went to school and they had never heard of
him. We
called for
his Birth records and they had
disappeared...as if
someone was
trying to make him a non-person.
We did however
confirm some
of the information that he had given us...we
found
newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he
had indeed
worked there...we found an old telephone book from
the lab with
his name in it, which
gave him a certain amount of credibility in
our eyes. The story he tells is an incredible
one. He was hired
to work at this
area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up
to a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus
with no windows to
S-4...the base
is built almost to look like
its part of the
desert with
sand covered hanger doors, he goes
inside and he
starts reading these briefing papers
dealing with UFOs! Pictures
of UFOs
on the walls, pictures of aliens,
autopsy reports on
alien bodies...things of this nature
-- he's pretty amazed. Then
he
sees the discs. He says there are nine
of the discs up there,
they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which
produces its own
gravitational
field...technology that does
not exist on this
planet, and the interesting thing...he thought for a
while that
perhaps it was just an advanced secret
scientific project that
our government is pursuing
until he looked inside one of
the
discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were
built
like for children...and then
things started coming together
for
him. Are you with me
Chuck?
CHUCK HARDER
I'm listening.
GEORGE KNAPP
Er, I'm not sure how
much detail you want me to go in on...
CHUCK HARDER
Oh I think you ought to
keep going.
GEORGE KNAPP
Well, this fellow was
up there for only a few months. And it
was
a rough place for him to
work...the security was so hard and
he
was being harassed at
home, his phones being tapped...plus he's
on
to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he starts
to tell other people about it,
confide with close friends.
CHUCK HARDER
Ummmmmm.....
GEORGE KNAPP
He had
the date of a couple of tests
and on
two consecutive
weekends he
took people up into the
desert outside of
the
boundaries of area S-4,
and they video taped the
saucers...what
looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!
CHUCK HARDER
Wow...
GEORGE KNAPP
We
showed that video as well...
CHUCK HARDER
Uh-huh....
GEORGE KNAPP
Five
different people that we interviewed that had gone up there
confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of
other bits
of his story
from other people, a former
security guard who
worked up there...who said he
had seen the saucers, a former
technician...
CHUCK HARDER
By the
way, excuse me, I have some
letters from some people
postmarked from
that area, one inside of a base, who
tells me
what you're saying
is true. Keep going.
GEORGE KNAPP
Ah, we also found a Nellis Airman who had been
on radar duty at
Nellis airbase
which is here just south of the area
that this
fellow is talking
about...he reported numerous times seeing...
CHUCK HARDER
George, excuse me...let me do the half hour news
break, I want
you to tell your story, I want America to hear
it...please stand
by.
>>>>At this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the
half hour news
headlines and
sports audio package from UPI<<<<
(After news the guest
is re-introduced for listeners who may have
just tuned in...)
CHUCK HARDER
How many reports did you do,
George?
GEORGE KNAPP
We did nine total in this series.
CHUCK HARDER
Ok,
now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told me
that a scientist named Bob
Lazar...
GEORGE KNAPP
Right...
CHUCK HARDER
Ok, came
to you and came to the public and
apparently was
concerned
for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get
news out that -
yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and
yes they are near...it's
near Nellis, is it not?
GEORGE KNAPP
Yes.
CHUCK HARDER
Cause I
have letters from people who are at
Nellis. Some of
which don't want to give their
name, some of which gave their
name, I have the postmarks. Tell us now if you would, start the
story from the fact that the gentleman has revealed that
there
are nine of these things.
We're listening and so is America.
GEORGE KNAPP
Well, we
wanted to try to confirm as much of
his story as
possible from other sources of
course, so we started looking for
other people
who might have knowledge of
what's going on up
there...as I
mentioned, I found a former security guard who
said
that he had
seen the saucers up
there, I found
a former
technician who
said that he had walked into a room
inadvertently
and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman
who had worked
in radar and said that basically he and his
fellow airman has
seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at
speeds up to
7,000 miles per
hour on radar...these things would stop
on a
dime, so
the guy knew that this is not
your average airplane
that's doing this.
We also interviewed the other people who went
with Lazar
up on two consecutive weeks,
they test them
on
Wednesdays for some reason,
and videotaped the tests, saw
these
things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as
well.
We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he
worked for
up there
-- we made Freedom of
Information Act requests
for
information about the various specific programs he
mentioned, of
course the Navy denied having any information on the
programs.
Of course in
those requests we also asked for other
information
about UFOs,
stuff the Navy has already released and they
denied
having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot
of faith
in the FOIA
requests.
CHUCK HARDER
In other
words, what you're saying is
that your organization
which is
KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, plus
many other UFO research
groups have
uncovered many UFO documents
that the government
says, 'Yeah, we got them and
yeah it's true'...but then when
you
ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'
GEORGE KNAPP
Exactly...that's
exactly correct!
CHUCK HARDER
I understand
from MUFON and many other groups
that there are
somewhere from four to seven
thousand documents that
prove
that...yes these things exist, copies of the documents are
in
private hands, then you
go and ask the government and they
say,
'Well, er, no we don't remember...'
GEORGE KNAPP
The
government says that they have done these studies that
say
that UFOs are no threat to national security,
they're either
psychological
aberrations, which means that people are nuts
when
they see them, that's what they feed the public...but
behind the
scenes they
are very concerned about
the national security
implications of UFOs that land
at nuclear missile bases and can't
be
caught, things of that nature.
So the government from what
I've read is very concerned about the phenomena
and doesn't
really understand
it. The government on the other
hand has
outright lied
concerning what information it does have...the
CIA
for example says
it doesn't collect
any information on
UFOs...well that's
just patently not true. We have
documents
from the CIA, a lot of it is blacked out, which
mentions UFO
studies by
the CIA, UFO
research, CIA-UFO experts,
agency
personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have
lied to
us all along. I didn't
expect to get any confirmation
regarding
what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try
anyway.
CHUCK HARDER
Before we went
to the half-hour break you said
that when he
looked inside one of these discs
there were little furniture,
give me some
information...
GEORGE KNAPP
Well he
feels that they were bringing him along, giving him
a
piece at a time.
He would see a saucer one day,
the next he
would see the hanger doors open and
see all nine of them...after
that
he got to see the inside of the thing.
He also got to see a
demonstration
of it. He was told to stand
back and watch
this...and the thing lights up real bright...I
guess the power
that's
produced is incredible, you need to produce
your own
gravitational field
and it raised up, he wasn't
sure who was
flying it or was it remotely or what.
He watched it raise up,
did a couple of maneuvers and sat
back down. Part of the reason
he came forward, not to spill
the secrets of the universe or
the
government, but because
the research that's being done up
there
is being handled in a clumsy fashion. If they have had these for
as long as forty years, which is what he
believes, they haven't
come to far in trying to understand them. Some of the discs he
said he saw up
there were being taken apart, kind of
a reverse
archaeology process to figure out how they worked. Some of the
research going on up there is aimed at trying to duplicate
the
things that these machines can do using earth
technologies and
earth materials and he says it just can't be
done. The key to
the flying of the things is
something he calls 'Element 115'...it
does not exist on our periodic
charts, he believes that wherever
it
came from its a naturally occurring element,
he says we have
500 pounds of this stuff up there, just a little tiny sliver of
it
produces incredible amounts of power.
Its the '115' that we
will not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one
of the reasons
that he came
forward is because scientists all over the world are
working, putting
their energy into trying to master the secrets
of gravity
and the secrets of anti-matter technology and here
we've got
it up there and they're not doing a very good job with
it -- this little batch of scientists hidden out in
the desert
are trying to figure it
out and not doing a very good job...
CHUCK HARDER
But this is kind of
common with the United States
government...I
read a tremendous amount of material...I read a
tremendous amount
of material...I
read five newspapers a day and I'll
find where
one group in one
part of the country is working on a project
and
I'll get a clipping
where another group is working on
the same
project, I've
contacted them and they don't know of each other!
GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah, Yeah
-- that's exactly
right...he said the
compartmentalization up
there was very severe as well
so that
nobody had the full
picture -- I guess so nobody could spill
the
beans as he has been trying to do.
CHUCK HARDER
Alright, what does he feel the public should know and
what does
he feel should be
done?
GEORGE KNAPP
Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to
do was to
save his
own life. He started having some problems
when it
became obvious to
his employers that he was telling someone
else
about this.
CHUCK HARDER
We're talking about Bob
Lazar now...
GEORGE KNAPP
Bob Lazar...his phone
being tapped, people visiting him,
calling
him up with a
single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang
up!
He tried to arrange
meetings with his former supervisor and
the
meetings didn't come off,
he says somebody took a shot at him on
the freeway...obviously he
realizes that if they really wanted to
kill him, they could. Maybe perhaps they were just trying to
shut him up. He feels that what is going on up there is
a crime
against the entire
scientific community...not only the
American
people because we don't know what's going on and we
haven't been
told alien
technology exists, but also
against the scientific
community. So, what else can I tell ya?
CHUCK HARDER
What
does he say about the aliens?
GEORGE KNAPP
He's reluctant
to talk about that, apparently he did
see some
aliens up
there...
CHUCK HARDER
Excuse me, are you telling me there were live
aliens?
GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah, he's
kind of sketchy on the details of that, and
I don't
think I should go much further on that...part of
the discussion
until I can talk to him, but he has indications
that there are
aliens up there, at least one...
CHUCK HARDER
Live?
GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah, it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't
include that in our
reports because I couldn't confirm any thing of
that nature, I
couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there
so...
CHUCK HARDER
What did they look like?
GEORGE KNAPP
Your classic
Grey...the little big-headed
almond eyed-grey
skinned
being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of the
UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it
as well
because it sounds so
crazy...
CHUCK HARDER
I don't think it's crazy at all, there was an article, let
me
digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the
front
page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all
of
the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced two
of
the grapes with cyanide a couple
of hours before the
FDA,
stumbled on them and
it was an inside job apparently
while the
grapes were in the inspection station...and it was
not done on
the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of
two little
grapes that almost
bankrupted the country of
Chile! If two
little grapes...and such a story
hits the front page of The Wall
Street Journal
about the questions about the
truthfulness and
what
happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever
get out if
they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!
GEORGE KNAPP
Well, I tell you we asked the question, the
obvious question, if
this is true;
how can the government keep this a secret all this
time? A
story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on
other
things, how could the coverup exist?
CHUCK HARDER
Oh, I'll tell
you...
GEORGE KNAPP
To which Lazar
responds, this is the easiest...and he asked
the
question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in
the
world to keep a secret because
if it does come out, little bits
and
pieces, who's going to believe it?
CHUCK HARDER
Exactly...let me, you
remember the Condon Report, do you not?
GEORGE KNAPP
Yes...
CHUCK HARDER
For those
who are listening, I got
into this investigation
because I kept getting
letters from our listeners who said, Chuck
you ought to investigate
this...we've investigated many things in
the past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on a
pay
phone coverup, we've
done things with Ralph Nader...and
so on.
So we started buying
the books and contacting UFO
organizations.
I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass
who was always
there...somehow he
as always there and he said that everything
was bunk! And of course, he works for the Aviation
Week magazine
which is of course is the mouthpiece for the Military/Industrial
complex and they certainly wouldn't want this
technology to be
out! I was also amazed when I saw the stealth bomber
(tests)
live on CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed
at the
same
place, (runway) do you remember that...?
GEORGE KNAPP
Yes...
CHUCK HARDER
My question is: If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret, how
could a man and his children land
their little tiny plane on the
same runway at a super-secret airforce base? How could he have
pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth? My feeling was,
probably the Stealth
Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!
GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah, I'd
have to agree with you, because the security
up
there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what they
want out of it.
CHUCK HARDER
So
what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil
Klass and all the of the spokespeople who are
supposed to know
everything,
what your saying is the ridicule
factor...if Billy
Bob sees
a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes it
to the paper, everybody laughs at him!
GEORGE KNAPP
There are
actual documents the government has
released (Under
Freedom of Information Act) that show it has an active
program
that started back in the fifties...the CIA even used the
term
DEBUNKING, there were discussions about using Walt
Disney to
produce cartoons
that made fun of people who
had seen flying
saucers...they were
going to bring Arthur Godfrey in
as their
spokesperson. Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's
explained away
UFO sightings seen by thousands of people
as the
constellation
ORION,
when you can only see ORION from
the other side of the
planet.
CHUCK HARDER
Uh
huh...
GEORGE KNAPP
He uses things
like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain
the
sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds
and the
examples that he is trying to explain occur in cloudless
skies
where there is
no lightning around. You mention
the Condon
report, that's a
perfect example of the kinds of things that
the
government has done in
the past, they commission a study, it's
supposed to be THE STUDY, but the
guy they hire to run the thing,
Edward Condon had before he even started,
that there was nothing
to UFOs,
the government should get out of it, and he also said at
one point that the authors of UFO books should
be HORSEWHIPPED!
One of
the explanations that came
from the Condon Committee
witnessed by
several people, they described it
as, a natural
phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before
or since! I
don't think this kind
of a thing is an accident!
CHUCK HARDER
Ok,
the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a UFO)
and
from what I have heard there are different kinds of
aliens, some
have been coming here
for years and years and it's nothing new...
GEORGE KNAPP
Right...
CHUCK HARDER
Why is
it in some parts of the world
(now) they report other
types of humanoids and other
types of vehicles...I happen to have
beautiful photos of some, and as I told you off-the-air, we're
going to be releasing them in our upcoming
magazine if someone
doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...
GEORGE KNAPP
You're talking about the Billy Meier case, if you want to touch
on that, we also
did some investigation on that...
CHUCK HARDER
Ok, go ahead.
GEORGE KNAPP
Billy
Meier, I've always been intrigued by
that, and wanted to
check them out. Its been pretty much written-off by the
UFO
community but when we
put questions to them about the case
they
can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked
to
Lee Elders one of the lead
investigators on the Billy Meier case
and
started going over the
evidence. The photos
had been
analyzed by independent experts, the film footage and video had
been analyzed,
the metal sample had been confirmed as something
we don't have -- technology of cold fusion was
used to produce
this metal,
the landing sites, the strange
circular patterns in
the
grass that are now only gaining attention in Britain
and
other countries, all of this stuff had never been pretty
much
discounted by the
UFO community because
Elders and Wendelle
Stevens had
gone outside of
the UFO community
to get
confirmation. The
UFO people were kept out of
it, the Billy
Meier case I
think exemplifies the biggest weakness
in UFOLOGY
and that's
the jealousy that permeates the
field...everybody
wants to
be the only one with the real story of
UFOs, so they
kind of written this guy off
only because he didn't cooperate
with them.
CHUCK HARDER
We have been able to get some photos from a
source who has some
negatives that
were just recently located...some from ten feet
away, I used to
be in the motion picture business. If
they are
models they cost thousands of dollars and I doubt
if a
simple
Swiss farmer could have done it...
GEORGE KNAPP
I'd
agree with ya, the reason we got
interested in Billy Meier,
it goes back to Lazar, was because Bob Lazar says, the
saucer
that he saw fly,
he dubbed it the sport model,
was the same
saucer in the Meier photos,
exactly the same.
CHUCK HARDER
The new ones or the old
ones?
GEORGE KNAPP
The new one.
CHUCK HARDER
Ok, that's the one
we've got.
GEORGE KNAPP
Going back to
the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4, he
saw the nine
saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got
the
variety pack, but
the one he saw fly was like the one
in the
Meier photo.
(There are Three types
photographed by Billy
Meier.)
That's why we decided to check out the Meier part
of the
(UFO)
story.
>>>>At this point Chuck Harder
tells George Knapp that there is a
break coming up and after the break
would he please tell Mr. and
Mrs.
America what they should do to get the truth.<<<<
CHUCK HARDER
I hope that Mr. and Mrs. America make
note of the name George
Knapp and
Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you
know why.
GEORGE KNAPP
Someone should
tell us what's going
on...TV and movies have
conditioned us...we
won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran
for
President promised that
if he was elected that he vowed to
open
all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why
and
he didn't respond. We want the government to come clean.
If
that takes a
Congressional Investigation...that's something that
should be looked
at. If it is launched we have to make
sure that
there are no CIA, contractors and the like involved
otherwise
people
aren't going to believe it. We've seen enough of this
whitewash stuff over the
years. If there's nothing to the
story,
then open up the files and prove it to us!
CHUCK HARDER
OK, have the government let the press into these
areas and don't
first clean them out...
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*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The
accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of
the law is the instrument of illegality.
-- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School,
1/15/92